Gwent health board facing £100m budget gap

Campaign Series: Gwent health board facing £100m budget gap Gwent health board facing £100m budget gap

GWENT'S health board is warning that it will need to close an eyewatering budget gap of at least £100 million during the next three years, in order to balance its books.

The sobering estimate of the financial challenge facing Aneurin Bevan Health Board is reported in its medium term plan.

And the plan cautions that the estimate is based on a number of assumptions regarding issues like the costs of drugs and Continuing Healthcare, the treatment needs of the population, and on the health board breaking even this year.

On that basis, the estimate of the financial challenge to the end of 2016/17 is put at just over £107m.

But the report states: "This is considered a conservative estimate when compared to previous years, and with other health board peers. It is therefore important to note that the scale of the financial challenge may be materially greater than this assessment, but is unlikely to be lower."

That £107m is assessed as being around four per cent of the total expenditure over the three-year period 2014/15, 2015/16 and 2016/17.

One factor that could make the figure even greater however, is if the health board fails to break even this year. Currently, it is forecasting an overspend for 2013/14 of £5.6m, which if previous arrangements were followed would require it to borrow the deficit sum from the Welsh Government, repaying it the following year.

Issues such as wage awards and the fluctuating costs of agency and locum staff could also have in bearing over the size of deficits in the next three years.

But the health board is that ongoing root-and-branch reviews and reorganisations of services and work patterns will help deliver the savings required to bridge the budget gap, while acknowledging that the challenge is huge.

Major shake-ups in the way key services such as A&E, neonatal, paediatric and obstetrics are provided will be announced next week, and these could help reduce costs, but even more wide ranging changes in the way the NHS in Gwent operates will be required.

The health board has already, over the past five years, saved more than £150m in order to cope with the financial challenges of shrinking NHS Wales budgets.

Comments (74)

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10:53am Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Bank bailouts in the UK = £1.5 trillion (yes, that's a 'T' not a 'B').
Tax 'avoidance' in the UK = Estimated up to £100 billion a year.

I think I see a way out of this...
Bank bailouts in the UK = £1.5 trillion (yes, that's a 'T' not a 'B'). Tax 'avoidance' in the UK = Estimated up to £100 billion a year. I think I see a way out of this... GardenVarietyMushroom

11:05am Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding
is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour.

Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster?
Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour. Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster? Crossbenchtory

11:29am Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

The funding is not devolved. All WAG funding comes from Westminster.
The funding is not devolved. All WAG funding comes from Westminster. GardenVarietyMushroom

12:48pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.
This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above. Crossbenchtory

12:59pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.
If the WAG are given a smaller pie, it's not really their fault if they have to cut smaller pieces to share round is it?

Though to be fair - they do waste a considerable sum just by being the WAG (coughcoughAIRPORTco
ughcough)
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.[/p][/quote]If the WAG are given a smaller pie, it's not really their fault if they have to cut smaller pieces to share round is it? Though to be fair - they do waste a considerable sum just by being the WAG (coughcoughAIRPORTco ughcough) GardenVarietyMushroom

2:24pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.
If the WAG are given a smaller pie, it's not really their fault if they have to cut smaller pieces to share round is it?

Though to be fair - they do waste a considerable sum just by being the WAG (coughcoughAIRPORTco

ughcough)
As you say, they can afford to waste money on nationalising a failing airport, not to mention increasing the number of civil servants in Wales (as opposed to Westminster which has cut the number of beauraucrates), wasting money on unnecessary translations of assembly proceedings (which no one reads), countless enquiries that are essentially ignored when they report, a new socialist think tank to say how wonderful all their communistic ideas are and all that on top of the utter waste of money that is the assembly in the first place.

It would seem that any rational person could only conclude that the heart of the problem is in fact devolution and the very existence of the assembly. Sensible solution, abolish the Welsh Assembly.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.[/p][/quote]If the WAG are given a smaller pie, it's not really their fault if they have to cut smaller pieces to share round is it? Though to be fair - they do waste a considerable sum just by being the WAG (coughcoughAIRPORTco ughcough)[/p][/quote]As you say, they can afford to waste money on nationalising a failing airport, not to mention increasing the number of civil servants in Wales (as opposed to Westminster which has cut the number of beauraucrates), wasting money on unnecessary translations of assembly proceedings (which no one reads), countless enquiries that are essentially ignored when they report, a new socialist think tank to say how wonderful all their communistic ideas are and all that on top of the utter waste of money that is the assembly in the first place. It would seem that any rational person could only conclude that the heart of the problem is in fact devolution and the very existence of the assembly. Sensible solution, abolish the Welsh Assembly. Crossbenchtory

2:27pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

What? And live under the tories? I'd sooner die.
What? And live under the tories? I'd sooner die. GardenVarietyMushroom

2:37pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Whilst not wishing to be responsible for your demise I would, were it up to me, have a Conservative PM in No 10 tomorrow, unfortunately we appear to be stuck with Mr Cameron for the foreseeable future.

With any luck Mr Gove will make his move, and topple Mr Cameron, in the not to distant future and then the Conservatives can get on and fix Great Britain ready for the socialists to get re-elected and destroy the economy again.
Whilst not wishing to be responsible for your demise I would, were it up to me, have a Conservative PM in No 10 tomorrow, unfortunately we appear to be stuck with Mr Cameron for the foreseeable future. With any luck Mr Gove will make his move, and topple Mr Cameron, in the not to distant future and then the Conservatives can get on and fix Great Britain ready for the socialists to get re-elected and destroy the economy again. Crossbenchtory

2:51pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Whilst not wishing to be responsible for your demise I would, were it up to me, have a Conservative PM in No 10 tomorrow, unfortunately we appear to be stuck with Mr Cameron for the foreseeable future.

With any luck Mr Gove will make his move, and topple Mr Cameron, in the not to distant future and then the Conservatives can get on and fix Great Britain ready for the socialists to get re-elected and destroy the economy again.
If you could see the look of sheer horror on my face right now. Gove? Really? REALLY?
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: Whilst not wishing to be responsible for your demise I would, were it up to me, have a Conservative PM in No 10 tomorrow, unfortunately we appear to be stuck with Mr Cameron for the foreseeable future. With any luck Mr Gove will make his move, and topple Mr Cameron, in the not to distant future and then the Conservatives can get on and fix Great Britain ready for the socialists to get re-elected and destroy the economy again.[/p][/quote]If you could see the look of sheer horror on my face right now. Gove? Really? REALLY? GardenVarietyMushroom

2:55pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

And as for the economy needing fixing - it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. I.e. providing a framework of hardship in order to attack social spending and increase the profits to wealthy people.

As a tory - you 'should' realise that
And as for the economy needing fixing - it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. I.e. providing a framework of hardship in order to attack social spending and increase the profits to wealthy people. As a tory - you 'should' realise that GardenVarietyMushroom

2:59pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Yes, Gove, really. He is a proper Conservative who has a vision for Britain, the courage of his convictions to stand up to nay sayers and the lefty intelligencia and the backbone to carry through what is required to be done.

As PM he would be a vast improvement on the invertebrates that inhabit the remaining seats on the government and opposition front benches.
Yes, Gove, really. He is a proper Conservative who has a vision for Britain, the courage of his convictions to stand up to nay sayers and the lefty intelligencia and the backbone to carry through what is required to be done. As PM he would be a vast improvement on the invertebrates that inhabit the remaining seats on the government and opposition front benches. Crossbenchtory

3:00pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
And as for the economy needing fixing - it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. I.e. providing a framework of hardship in order to attack social spending and increase the profits to wealthy people.

As a tory - you 'should' realise that
Not an economist are you?
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: And as for the economy needing fixing - it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. I.e. providing a framework of hardship in order to attack social spending and increase the profits to wealthy people. As a tory - you 'should' realise that[/p][/quote]Not an economist are you? Crossbenchtory

3:16pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Yes, Gove, really. He is a proper Conservative who has a vision for Britain, the courage of his convictions to stand up to nay sayers and the lefty intelligencia and the backbone to carry through what is required to be done.

As PM he would be a vast improvement on the invertebrates that inhabit the remaining seats on the government and opposition front benches.
Hahahahahaaaaa.... oh wait.... I think I'm going to be sick...



Urgh, disgusting... just like the jingoistic scumbag Gove.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: Yes, Gove, really. He is a proper Conservative who has a vision for Britain, the courage of his convictions to stand up to nay sayers and the lefty intelligencia and the backbone to carry through what is required to be done. As PM he would be a vast improvement on the invertebrates that inhabit the remaining seats on the government and opposition front benches.[/p][/quote]Hahahahahaaaaa.... oh wait.... I think I'm going to be sick... Urgh, disgusting... just like the jingoistic scumbag Gove. GardenVarietyMushroom

3:18pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
And as for the economy needing fixing - it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. I.e. providing a framework of hardship in order to attack social spending and increase the profits to wealthy people.

As a tory - you 'should' realise that
Not an economist are you?
If by 'economist' you mean 'proponent of the Chicago School of Economics' theories of the likes of Friedman - as fawned over by the likes of Thatcher and assorted other murdering despots around the world

Then no.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: And as for the economy needing fixing - it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. I.e. providing a framework of hardship in order to attack social spending and increase the profits to wealthy people. As a tory - you 'should' realise that[/p][/quote]Not an economist are you?[/p][/quote]If by 'economist' you mean 'proponent of the Chicago School of Economics' theories of the likes of Friedman - as fawned over by the likes of Thatcher and assorted other murdering despots around the world Then no. GardenVarietyMushroom

3:34pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

I wouldn't compare my views with those of Baroness Thatcher, she was always a bit too left leaning for my tastes, both economically and in social policy, but she was definitely a better option for PM than Callaghan, Foot (whom I always respected for his, albeit misguided, strong beliefs in how he wanted Britain to be) or that buffoon Kinnock.
I wouldn't compare my views with those of Baroness Thatcher, she was always a bit too left leaning for my tastes, both economically and in social policy, but she was definitely a better option for PM than Callaghan, Foot (whom I always respected for his, albeit misguided, strong beliefs in how he wanted Britain to be) or that buffoon Kinnock. Crossbenchtory

4:13pm Mon 10 Feb 14

bobmech1 says...

Hello this isn't about toppling politicians in Westminter it's about labour in Wales ignoring the health service to waste money on airports, failing quangos and then blaming everyone except themselves.
The health service needs to shed top management and wages not staff
Hello this isn't about toppling politicians in Westminter it's about labour in Wales ignoring the health service to waste money on airports, failing quangos and then blaming everyone except themselves. The health service needs to shed top management and wages not staff bobmech1

4:19pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
I wouldn't compare my views with those of Baroness Thatcher, she was always a bit too left leaning for my tastes, both economically and in social policy, but she was definitely a better option for PM than Callaghan, Foot (whom I always respected for his, albeit misguided, strong beliefs in how he wanted Britain to be) or that buffoon Kinnock.
Lol - I think I'll halt this conversation right here as it's in danger of going rapidly downhill.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: I wouldn't compare my views with those of Baroness Thatcher, she was always a bit too left leaning for my tastes, both economically and in social policy, but she was definitely a better option for PM than Callaghan, Foot (whom I always respected for his, albeit misguided, strong beliefs in how he wanted Britain to be) or that buffoon Kinnock.[/p][/quote]Lol - I think I'll halt this conversation right here as it's in danger of going rapidly downhill. GardenVarietyMushroom

4:21pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

bobmech1 wrote:
Hello this isn't about toppling politicians in Westminter it's about labour in Wales ignoring the health service to waste money on airports, failing quangos and then blaming everyone except themselves.
The health service needs to shed top management and wages not staff
Absolutely agree, as you will be able to see from my initial post above. The only way to sort out the NHS, both in Wales and the rest of the UK, is private provision of healthcare.

Get the politicians and bureaucrates out of it and let the professionals run it. It can still be funded by taxation and free at point of use but with the private sector running it, due to competition for contracts, the cost would go down and the standard of care provision would go up.

Of course your average socialist will be vehemently against this because nationalisation has always worked so well where ever it's been tried.
[quote][p][bold]bobmech1[/bold] wrote: Hello this isn't about toppling politicians in Westminter it's about labour in Wales ignoring the health service to waste money on airports, failing quangos and then blaming everyone except themselves. The health service needs to shed top management and wages not staff[/p][/quote]Absolutely agree, as you will be able to see from my initial post above. The only way to sort out the NHS, both in Wales and the rest of the UK, is private provision of healthcare. Get the politicians and bureaucrates out of it and let the professionals run it. It can still be funded by taxation and free at point of use but with the private sector running it, due to competition for contracts, the cost would go down and the standard of care provision would go up. Of course your average socialist will be vehemently against this because nationalisation has always worked so well where ever it's been tried. Crossbenchtory

4:24pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
I wouldn't compare my views with those of Baroness Thatcher, she was always a bit too left leaning for my tastes, both economically and in social policy, but she was definitely a better option for PM than Callaghan, Foot (whom I always respected for his, albeit misguided, strong beliefs in how he wanted Britain to be) or that buffoon Kinnock.
Lol - I think I'll halt this conversation right here as it's in danger of going rapidly downhill.
Mmmmmmm, I suppose if you've never voted, or even bothered to register to vote, your right to comment on things political is somewhat compromised, isn't it.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: I wouldn't compare my views with those of Baroness Thatcher, she was always a bit too left leaning for my tastes, both economically and in social policy, but she was definitely a better option for PM than Callaghan, Foot (whom I always respected for his, albeit misguided, strong beliefs in how he wanted Britain to be) or that buffoon Kinnock.[/p][/quote]Lol - I think I'll halt this conversation right here as it's in danger of going rapidly downhill.[/p][/quote]Mmmmmmm, I suppose if you've never voted, or even bothered to register to vote, your right to comment on things political is somewhat compromised, isn't it. Crossbenchtory

4:54pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
bobmech1 wrote:
Hello this isn't about toppling politicians in Westminter it's about labour in Wales ignoring the health service to waste money on airports, failing quangos and then blaming everyone except themselves.
The health service needs to shed top management and wages not staff
Absolutely agree, as you will be able to see from my initial post above. The only way to sort out the NHS, both in Wales and the rest of the UK, is private provision of healthcare.

Get the politicians and bureaucrates out of it and let the professionals run it. It can still be funded by taxation and free at point of use but with the private sector running it, due to competition for contracts, the cost would go down and the standard of care provision would go up.

Of course your average socialist will be vehemently against this because nationalisation has always worked so well where ever it's been tried.
And privatisation has worked where exactly?
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bobmech1[/bold] wrote: Hello this isn't about toppling politicians in Westminter it's about labour in Wales ignoring the health service to waste money on airports, failing quangos and then blaming everyone except themselves. The health service needs to shed top management and wages not staff[/p][/quote]Absolutely agree, as you will be able to see from my initial post above. The only way to sort out the NHS, both in Wales and the rest of the UK, is private provision of healthcare. Get the politicians and bureaucrates out of it and let the professionals run it. It can still be funded by taxation and free at point of use but with the private sector running it, due to competition for contracts, the cost would go down and the standard of care provision would go up. Of course your average socialist will be vehemently against this because nationalisation has always worked so well where ever it's been tried.[/p][/quote]And privatisation has worked where exactly? GardenVarietyMushroom

4:55pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
I wouldn't compare my views with those of Baroness Thatcher, she was always a bit too left leaning for my tastes, both economically and in social policy, but she was definitely a better option for PM than Callaghan, Foot (whom I always respected for his, albeit misguided, strong beliefs in how he wanted Britain to be) or that buffoon Kinnock.
Lol - I think I'll halt this conversation right here as it's in danger of going rapidly downhill.
Mmmmmmm, I suppose if you've never voted, or even bothered to register to vote, your right to comment on things political is somewhat compromised, isn't it.
How so?
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: I wouldn't compare my views with those of Baroness Thatcher, she was always a bit too left leaning for my tastes, both economically and in social policy, but she was definitely a better option for PM than Callaghan, Foot (whom I always respected for his, albeit misguided, strong beliefs in how he wanted Britain to be) or that buffoon Kinnock.[/p][/quote]Lol - I think I'll halt this conversation right here as it's in danger of going rapidly downhill.[/p][/quote]Mmmmmmm, I suppose if you've never voted, or even bothered to register to vote, your right to comment on things political is somewhat compromised, isn't it.[/p][/quote]How so? GardenVarietyMushroom

5:25pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Bobevans says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding
is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour.

Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster?
They need to take firm measures to reduce spending

Reintroduce charges for car parking. Introduce a charge of £1 a day for meals in hospital after all you would have to pay for your meals at home

Introduce a £25 charge for missed appointments

Charge £25 to walk into A&E. There would be no charge if referred to A&E by your GP or other NHS professional or if referred by 111 service

Stop health tourism only treat those that have paid NI
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour. Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster?[/p][/quote]They need to take firm measures to reduce spending Reintroduce charges for car parking. Introduce a charge of £1 a day for meals in hospital after all you would have to pay for your meals at home Introduce a £25 charge for missed appointments Charge £25 to walk into A&E. There would be no charge if referred to A&E by your GP or other NHS professional or if referred by 111 service Stop health tourism only treat those that have paid NI Bobevans

5:25pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Bobevans says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding
is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour.

Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster?
They need to take firm measures to reduce spending

Reintroduce charges for car parking. Introduce a charge of £1 a day for meals in hospital after all you would have to pay for your meals at home

Introduce a £25 charge for missed appointments

Charge £25 to walk into A&E. There would be no charge if referred to A&E by your GP or other NHS professional or if referred by 111 service

Stop health tourism only treat those that have paid NI
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour. Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster?[/p][/quote]They need to take firm measures to reduce spending Reintroduce charges for car parking. Introduce a charge of £1 a day for meals in hospital after all you would have to pay for your meals at home Introduce a £25 charge for missed appointments Charge £25 to walk into A&E. There would be no charge if referred to A&E by your GP or other NHS professional or if referred by 111 service Stop health tourism only treat those that have paid NI Bobevans

5:35pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Bobevans wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding
is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour.

Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster?
They need to take firm measures to reduce spending

Reintroduce charges for car parking. Introduce a charge of £1 a day for meals in hospital after all you would have to pay for your meals at home

Introduce a £25 charge for missed appointments

Charge £25 to walk into A&E. There would be no charge if referred to A&E by your GP or other NHS professional or if referred by 111 service

Stop health tourism only treat those that have paid NI
Whilst I agree with your conclusion regarding only treating those who have pay NI (this would have to include those who's parents have paid), the problem with charging for missed appointments is that you tend to end up spending more than you recover. I can see you point though.
[quote][p][bold]Bobevans[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour. Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster?[/p][/quote]They need to take firm measures to reduce spending Reintroduce charges for car parking. Introduce a charge of £1 a day for meals in hospital after all you would have to pay for your meals at home Introduce a £25 charge for missed appointments Charge £25 to walk into A&E. There would be no charge if referred to A&E by your GP or other NHS professional or if referred by 111 service Stop health tourism only treat those that have paid NI[/p][/quote]Whilst I agree with your conclusion regarding only treating those who have pay NI (this would have to include those who's parents have paid), the problem with charging for missed appointments is that you tend to end up spending more than you recover. I can see you point though. Crossbenchtory

6:17pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Bobevans wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding
is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour.

Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster?
They need to take firm measures to reduce spending

Reintroduce charges for car parking. Introduce a charge of £1 a day for meals in hospital after all you would have to pay for your meals at home

Introduce a £25 charge for missed appointments

Charge £25 to walk into A&E. There would be no charge if referred to A&E by your GP or other NHS professional or if referred by 111 service

Stop health tourism only treat those that have paid NI
Most of what you say makes sense .

Introducing a £25 charge for walking into the A&E however is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard you say.
[quote][p][bold]Bobevans[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: Being that the NHS in Wales is devolved, therefore meaning the funding is devolved, the blame for any short fall in funding in the Welsh NHS must surely lie squarely on the shoulders of the WAG (who have cut the NHS budget by 8.5% in the last 3 years) which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is Labour. Mmmmm, socialists, friends of the people and guardians of the NHS or disgusting little people willing to sacrifice the health and lives of the most vulnerable in society and try and blame it on someone else, in this case the Conservative led government in Westminster?[/p][/quote]They need to take firm measures to reduce spending Reintroduce charges for car parking. Introduce a charge of £1 a day for meals in hospital after all you would have to pay for your meals at home Introduce a £25 charge for missed appointments Charge £25 to walk into A&E. There would be no charge if referred to A&E by your GP or other NHS professional or if referred by 111 service Stop health tourism only treat those that have paid NI[/p][/quote]Most of what you say makes sense . Introducing a £25 charge for walking into the A&E however is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard you say. GardenVarietyMushroom

6:19pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.
If the WAG are given a smaller pie, it's not really their fault if they have to cut smaller pieces to share round is it?

Though to be fair - they do waste a considerable sum just by being the WAG (coughcoughAIRPORTco


ughcough)
As you say, they can afford to waste money on nationalising a failing airport, not to mention increasing the number of civil servants in Wales (as opposed to Westminster which has cut the number of beauraucrates), wasting money on unnecessary translations of assembly proceedings (which no one reads), countless enquiries that are essentially ignored when they report, a new socialist think tank to say how wonderful all their communistic ideas are and all that on top of the utter waste of money that is the assembly in the first place.

It would seem that any rational person could only conclude that the heart of the problem is in fact devolution and the very existence of the assembly. Sensible solution, abolish the Welsh Assembly.
Spot on.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.[/p][/quote]If the WAG are given a smaller pie, it's not really their fault if they have to cut smaller pieces to share round is it? Though to be fair - they do waste a considerable sum just by being the WAG (coughcoughAIRPORTco ughcough)[/p][/quote]As you say, they can afford to waste money on nationalising a failing airport, not to mention increasing the number of civil servants in Wales (as opposed to Westminster which has cut the number of beauraucrates), wasting money on unnecessary translations of assembly proceedings (which no one reads), countless enquiries that are essentially ignored when they report, a new socialist think tank to say how wonderful all their communistic ideas are and all that on top of the utter waste of money that is the assembly in the first place. It would seem that any rational person could only conclude that the heart of the problem is in fact devolution and the very existence of the assembly. Sensible solution, abolish the Welsh Assembly.[/p][/quote]Spot on. Llanmartinangel

6:23pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.
If the WAG are given a smaller pie, it's not really their fault if they have to cut smaller pieces to share round is it?

Though to be fair - they do waste a considerable sum just by being the WAG (coughcoughAIRPORTco



ughcough)
As you say, they can afford to waste money on nationalising a failing airport, not to mention increasing the number of civil servants in Wales (as opposed to Westminster which has cut the number of beauraucrates), wasting money on unnecessary translations of assembly proceedings (which no one reads), countless enquiries that are essentially ignored when they report, a new socialist think tank to say how wonderful all their communistic ideas are and all that on top of the utter waste of money that is the assembly in the first place.

It would seem that any rational person could only conclude that the heart of the problem is in fact devolution and the very existence of the assembly. Sensible solution, abolish the Welsh Assembly.
Spot on.
Speaking as someone who has no position other than non partisan outside observer, it still amazes me that anyone can call Labour left wing/communist/socia
list...

Labour abandoned any last vestige of that under Blair
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.[/p][/quote]If the WAG are given a smaller pie, it's not really their fault if they have to cut smaller pieces to share round is it? Though to be fair - they do waste a considerable sum just by being the WAG (coughcoughAIRPORTco ughcough)[/p][/quote]As you say, they can afford to waste money on nationalising a failing airport, not to mention increasing the number of civil servants in Wales (as opposed to Westminster which has cut the number of beauraucrates), wasting money on unnecessary translations of assembly proceedings (which no one reads), countless enquiries that are essentially ignored when they report, a new socialist think tank to say how wonderful all their communistic ideas are and all that on top of the utter waste of money that is the assembly in the first place. It would seem that any rational person could only conclude that the heart of the problem is in fact devolution and the very existence of the assembly. Sensible solution, abolish the Welsh Assembly.[/p][/quote]Spot on.[/p][/quote]Speaking as someone who has no position other than non partisan outside observer, it still amazes me that anyone can call Labour left wing/communist/socia list... Labour abandoned any last vestige of that under Blair GardenVarietyMushroom

6:52pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Basically all the political parties in this country, and most of Europe, are well to the left of the rest of the world and essentially socialist in their outlook.
Basically all the political parties in this country, and most of Europe, are well to the left of the rest of the world and essentially socialist in their outlook. Crossbenchtory

7:34pm Mon 10 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Basically all the political parties in this country, and most of Europe, are well to the left of the rest of the world and essentially socialist in their outlook.
Ha - now I know you're just trying to wind me up.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: Basically all the political parties in this country, and most of Europe, are well to the left of the rest of the world and essentially socialist in their outlook.[/p][/quote]Ha - now I know you're just trying to wind me up. GardenVarietyMushroom

10:10pm Mon 10 Feb 14

scraptheWAG says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
The funding is not devolved. All WAG funding comes from Westminster.
the WAG receives enough money for the NHS but diverts it to empire building and a daft novelty language.

Write to Carwyn and ask why he can spend million on a dead language but leaves the nhs short???
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: The funding is not devolved. All WAG funding comes from Westminster.[/p][/quote]the WAG receives enough money for the NHS but diverts it to empire building and a daft novelty language. Write to Carwyn and ask why he can spend million on a dead language but leaves the nhs short??? scraptheWAG

10:52pm Mon 10 Feb 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Anyone who cannot see that spending over half a £billion on the Cardiff Bay hot air factory is the real problem here is deluded. You can only spend the money once. Civil servants or health professionals? Which is it?
Anyone who cannot see that spending over half a £billion on the Cardiff Bay hot air factory is the real problem here is deluded. You can only spend the money once. Civil servants or health professionals? Which is it? Llanmartinangel

5:03pm Tue 11 Feb 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.
You are not going to get any positive marks on your posts with a name like Cossbenchtory.
This is Wales, they don't support any political party except Labour.
Perhaps you should change to Crossbenchlabour, that would do it.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.[/p][/quote]You are not going to get any positive marks on your posts with a name like Cossbenchtory. This is Wales, they don't support any political party except Labour. Perhaps you should change to Crossbenchlabour, that would do it. Cymru Am Beth

5:34pm Tue 11 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Cymru Am Beth wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.
You are not going to get any positive marks on your posts with a name like Cossbenchtory.
This is Wales, they don't support any political party except Labour.
Perhaps you should change to Crossbenchlabour, that would do it.
I'm not concerned with popularity contests, merely with calling it how I see it. I would suggest that it is those who vote against a name, rather than putting forward coherent arguments of their own, who have a problem, not me.

I have long thought that the average Welsh voter is so inter-generationally indoctrinated into an unfathomable belief in socialism that if Mrs Thatcher, were she still alive, stood for election in the Rhondda she would win if she wore a Labour rosette.

As the Late and Great Winston Churchill once said "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter". He must have had Wales in mind at the time.
[quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: This is true, but it is a bulk funding arrangement which means it is to the WAG to decide where the money is spent and they have deliberately neglected NHS funding and are thus culpable, as I stated above.[/p][/quote]You are not going to get any positive marks on your posts with a name like Cossbenchtory. This is Wales, they don't support any political party except Labour. Perhaps you should change to Crossbenchlabour, that would do it.[/p][/quote]I'm not concerned with popularity contests, merely with calling it how I see it. I would suggest that it is those who vote against a name, rather than putting forward coherent arguments of their own, who have a problem, not me. I have long thought that the average Welsh voter is so inter-generationally indoctrinated into an unfathomable belief in socialism that if Mrs Thatcher, were she still alive, stood for election in the Rhondda she would win if she wore a Labour rosette. As the Late and Great Winston Churchill once said "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter". He must have had Wales in mind at the time. Crossbenchtory

8:55am Wed 12 Feb 14

Mervyn James says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Whilst not wishing to be responsible for your demise I would, were it up to me, have a Conservative PM in No 10 tomorrow, unfortunately we appear to be stuck with Mr Cameron for the foreseeable future.

With any luck Mr Gove will make his move, and topple Mr Cameron, in the not to distant future and then the Conservatives can get on and fix Great Britain ready for the socialists to get re-elected and destroy the economy again.
If you could see the look of sheer horror on my face right now. Gove? Really? REALLY?
These people don't live in the same world as the rest of us, I think it is a tory attempt at humour or something, obviously work in progress. The thing with allocating NHS money is the welsh situation is different from the English one, we have a higher proportion of very sick people in wales than the average, ore rural issues, and people with long term conditions, as well as countless villages in the valleys populated with older people obviously needing more and more health provision. Buying a white elephant of an airport whilst inexplicable, doesn't affect the funding provision allocated to NHS Cymru.

I'd like to see anyone here balance the books, there isn't the money given to run an effective NHS. Decisions need to be made, like no heath care for drug addicts, alcoholics, people who eat until they burst etc and cosmetic surgery, maybe we should support the end to those ? All I read is 'people are living too long..' maybe euthanasia at retirement age would do it...... What am I saying ! Tories would consider that for others.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: Whilst not wishing to be responsible for your demise I would, were it up to me, have a Conservative PM in No 10 tomorrow, unfortunately we appear to be stuck with Mr Cameron for the foreseeable future. With any luck Mr Gove will make his move, and topple Mr Cameron, in the not to distant future and then the Conservatives can get on and fix Great Britain ready for the socialists to get re-elected and destroy the economy again.[/p][/quote]If you could see the look of sheer horror on my face right now. Gove? Really? REALLY?[/p][/quote]These people don't live in the same world as the rest of us, I think it is a tory attempt at humour or something, obviously work in progress. The thing with allocating NHS money is the welsh situation is different from the English one, we have a higher proportion of very sick people in wales than the average, ore rural issues, and people with long term conditions, as well as countless villages in the valleys populated with older people obviously needing more and more health provision. Buying a white elephant of an airport whilst inexplicable, doesn't affect the funding provision allocated to NHS Cymru. I'd like to see anyone here balance the books, there isn't the money given to run an effective NHS. Decisions need to be made, like no heath care for drug addicts, alcoholics, people who eat until they burst etc and cosmetic surgery, maybe we should support the end to those ? All I read is 'people are living too long..' maybe euthanasia at retirement age would do it...... What am I saying ! Tories would consider that for others. Mervyn James

3:56pm Wed 12 Feb 14

jimmysmith says...

the chief executive of nevill hall hospital 240 .000 a year his deputy 200 000 a year . get the picture folks .get shot of all these no purpose people out of the nhs .right across wales .dissolve the useless welsh assembley and all the hangers on there as well .this is where all our money is going
the chief executive of nevill hall hospital 240 .000 a year his deputy 200 000 a year . get the picture folks .get shot of all these no purpose people out of the nhs .right across wales .dissolve the useless welsh assembley and all the hangers on there as well .this is where all our money is going jimmysmith

7:22pm Wed 12 Feb 14

Mervyn James says...

What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong.
What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong. Mervyn James

7:29pm Wed 12 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Mervyn James wrote:
What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong.
Um, you can all be wrong and I would submit that you are all wrong.

The assembly was set up by a labour government to ensure one thing and one thing only and that was to ensure that there would always be a minor labour power base somewhere in the UK irrespective of whether or not there was a labour government in Westminster. In that aim they have succeeded as Wales is now, effectively, a one party state because the population is either too stupid, or too brainwashed, to vote anything but socialist.

And that is why Wales is an educational, health and economic basketcase!
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong.[/p][/quote]Um, you can all be wrong and I would submit that you are all wrong. The assembly was set up by a labour government to ensure one thing and one thing only and that was to ensure that there would always be a minor labour power base somewhere in the UK irrespective of whether or not there was a labour government in Westminster. In that aim they have succeeded as Wales is now, effectively, a one party state because the population is either too stupid, or too brainwashed, to vote anything but socialist. And that is why Wales is an educational, health and economic basketcase! Crossbenchtory

1:07am Thu 13 Feb 14

jimmysmith says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong.
Um, you can all be wrong and I would submit that you are all wrong.

The assembly was set up by a labour government to ensure one thing and one thing only and that was to ensure that there would always be a minor labour power base somewhere in the UK irrespective of whether or not there was a labour government in Westminster. In that aim they have succeeded as Wales is now, effectively, a one party state because the population is either too stupid, or too brainwashed, to vote anything but socialist.

And that is why Wales is an educational, health and economic basketcase!
and with a post like that you are most definately a basket case as you put it and wales is no more labour than what beirut is catholic .wales is down the pan chum because of every one from local council level right upto the wasters in the houses of parliament is robbing us blind no matter who they are tory labour lib dem what ever . clowns like you detached from reality continually bleating about labour to blame for every thing make me laugh to be honest .look at this latest traitor cameron and the way hes selling us out . we would all be better of voting the bnp in to be honest
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong.[/p][/quote]Um, you can all be wrong and I would submit that you are all wrong. The assembly was set up by a labour government to ensure one thing and one thing only and that was to ensure that there would always be a minor labour power base somewhere in the UK irrespective of whether or not there was a labour government in Westminster. In that aim they have succeeded as Wales is now, effectively, a one party state because the population is either too stupid, or too brainwashed, to vote anything but socialist. And that is why Wales is an educational, health and economic basketcase![/p][/quote]and with a post like that you are most definately a basket case as you put it and wales is no more labour than what beirut is catholic .wales is down the pan chum because of every one from local council level right upto the wasters in the houses of parliament is robbing us blind no matter who they are tory labour lib dem what ever . clowns like you detached from reality continually bleating about labour to blame for every thing make me laugh to be honest .look at this latest traitor cameron and the way hes selling us out . we would all be better of voting the bnp in to be honest jimmysmith

10:34am Thu 13 Feb 14

Mervyn James says...

Ridiculous responses ! Labour is in because the people of wales VOTED them in. To suggest Labour told welsh people to vote for them to ensure a labour party 'base' in Wales is utterly ridiculous, it suggests welsh voters are stupid for not voting Tory ! factually the tory polices have dictated a labour majority here and their hatred of Wales and its determination to stay with labour, but its the welsh voter choice.

I have no doubt the above posters either both voted tory, or not at all, which is their choice, if they want a tory Assembly or an end TO the Assembly, then vote for that, no-one is telling YOU to vote labour, how silly !!!! When the vote came FOR an Assembly, where the hell were your votes against ? If as some suggest apathy let the Assembly in, then again-own fault. Sour grapes compounded by a blame culture, which originates.... from within the Tory party and the don't blame me I didn't vote at all brigade. who cares what they say, they didn't use a vote, they don't count.
Ridiculous responses ! Labour is in because the people of wales VOTED them in. To suggest Labour told welsh people to vote for them to ensure a labour party 'base' in Wales is utterly ridiculous, it suggests welsh voters are stupid for not voting Tory ! factually the tory polices have dictated a labour majority here and their hatred of Wales and its determination to stay with labour, but its the welsh voter choice. I have no doubt the above posters either both voted tory, or not at all, which is their choice, if they want a tory Assembly or an end TO the Assembly, then vote for that, no-one is telling YOU to vote labour, how silly !!!! When the vote came FOR an Assembly, where the hell were your votes against ? If as some suggest apathy let the Assembly in, then again-own fault. Sour grapes compounded by a blame culture, which originates.... from within the Tory party and the don't blame me I didn't vote at all brigade. who cares what they say, they didn't use a vote, they don't count. Mervyn James

10:47am Thu 13 Feb 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong.
Um, you can all be wrong and I would submit that you are all wrong.

The assembly was set up by a labour government to ensure one thing and one thing only and that was to ensure that there would always be a minor labour power base somewhere in the UK irrespective of whether or not there was a labour government in Westminster. In that aim they have succeeded as Wales is now, effectively, a one party state because the population is either too stupid, or too brainwashed, to vote anything but socialist.

And that is why Wales is an educational, health and economic basketcase!
Unfortunately, that seems to be the case.
Also, I would take issue with Mervyn James that Welsh people endorsed the Assembly.
Most people didn't vote and those that did moistly voted against it, especially in the main areas such as Cardiff ,Swansea and Newport.
The actual vote was manipulated to ensure a 'yes' result, which as stated above, has resulted in a one party state.
Unless we get the 'chip off our shoulder' we are doomed to failure.
I am making sure that my children get a good education and won't have to rely on the state.
If they stay in Wales they will be net contributors to the feckless and work shy
dependants that we are creating on a large scale with no self esteem and no future.
My father was a Labour voter and a member of the party. I unlike the sheep have never voted for them because he did. I made up my own mind and got off my backside and did something with my life, instead of languishing in the past, blaming Margaret Thatcher for everything, as quite a lot of contributors on here seem to do.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong.[/p][/quote]Um, you can all be wrong and I would submit that you are all wrong. The assembly was set up by a labour government to ensure one thing and one thing only and that was to ensure that there would always be a minor labour power base somewhere in the UK irrespective of whether or not there was a labour government in Westminster. In that aim they have succeeded as Wales is now, effectively, a one party state because the population is either too stupid, or too brainwashed, to vote anything but socialist. And that is why Wales is an educational, health and economic basketcase![/p][/quote]Unfortunately, that seems to be the case. Also, I would take issue with Mervyn James that Welsh people endorsed the Assembly. Most people didn't vote and those that did moistly voted against it, especially in the main areas such as Cardiff ,Swansea and Newport. The actual vote was manipulated to ensure a 'yes' result, which as stated above, has resulted in a one party state. Unless we get the 'chip off our shoulder' we are doomed to failure. I am making sure that my children get a good education and won't have to rely on the state. If they stay in Wales they will be net contributors to the feckless and work shy dependants that we are creating on a large scale with no self esteem and no future. My father was a Labour voter and a member of the party. I unlike the sheep have never voted for them because he did. I made up my own mind and got off my backside and did something with my life, instead of languishing in the past, blaming Margaret Thatcher for everything, as quite a lot of contributors on here seem to do. Cymru Am Beth

7:10pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Mervyn James says...

You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too.

I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol
You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too. I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol Mervyn James

7:33pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Mervyn James wrote:
You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too.

I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol
If you paid attention and checked your facts you would know that the 4 sacked AM's actually refused to vote against the Conservative Party policy on tax raising powers and were sacked for this by Andrew RT Davies.

The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too. I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol[/p][/quote]If you paid attention and checked your facts you would know that the 4 sacked AM's actually refused to vote against the Conservative Party policy on tax raising powers and were sacked for this by Andrew RT Davies. The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent. Crossbenchtory

7:33pm Thu 13 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Mervyn James wrote:
You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too.

I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol
If you paid attention and checked your facts you would know that the 4 sacked AM's actually refused to vote against the Conservative Party policy on tax raising powers and were sacked for this by Andrew RT Davies.

The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too. I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol[/p][/quote]If you paid attention and checked your facts you would know that the 4 sacked AM's actually refused to vote against the Conservative Party policy on tax raising powers and were sacked for this by Andrew RT Davies. The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent. Crossbenchtory

9:18pm Thu 13 Feb 14

welshmen says...

jimmysmith wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong.
Um, you can all be wrong and I would submit that you are all wrong.

The assembly was set up by a labour government to ensure one thing and one thing only and that was to ensure that there would always be a minor labour power base somewhere in the UK irrespective of whether or not there was a labour government in Westminster. In that aim they have succeeded as Wales is now, effectively, a one party state because the population is either too stupid, or too brainwashed, to vote anything but socialist.

And that is why Wales is an educational, health and economic basketcase!
and with a post like that you are most definately a basket case as you put it and wales is no more labour than what beirut is catholic .wales is down the pan chum because of every one from local council level right upto the wasters in the houses of parliament is robbing us blind no matter who they are tory labour lib dem what ever . clowns like you detached from reality continually bleating about labour to blame for every thing make me laugh to be honest .look at this latest traitor cameron and the way hes selling us out . we would all be better of voting the bnp in to be honest
.jimmysmith wrote:
"we would all be better of voting the bnp in to be honest"

one of the most sensible comments I have seen or here, someone besides me who see the British National Party as the change our Country needs, most on here want more of the same crap we've had for decades, quite happy to vote for the Millionaires in Parliament and take in the lies the promises, even those who think that they are intellectual intelligent posters on here are FOOLED big style, there are posters on here who don't actually vote yet they think their way is the only way forward for our country, I bet none of them have even looked at the British National Parties Polices, I know some one from UKIP have, Nigel Farage, most of their Polices are the BNP with a Tory spin....
[quote][p][bold]jimmysmith[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: What about getting rid of Welsh MP's on the gravy train in London, we could save a few quid there. Welsh people endorsed and voted for an Assembly, just get with it. There is no argument to be made for a return to English rule again, we voted an Assembly in because they said Cardiff was 'Fort Apache' and they only used their 'welsh office' as an area to teach errant English politicians a lesson, until we kicked them out..... they had no respect for Wales, and still don't because Wales is Labour held territory, its the politics of sour grapes from Tories. But they still have no chance of getting in here. 3 generations have ensured that. We cannot all be wrong.[/p][/quote]Um, you can all be wrong and I would submit that you are all wrong. The assembly was set up by a labour government to ensure one thing and one thing only and that was to ensure that there would always be a minor labour power base somewhere in the UK irrespective of whether or not there was a labour government in Westminster. In that aim they have succeeded as Wales is now, effectively, a one party state because the population is either too stupid, or too brainwashed, to vote anything but socialist. And that is why Wales is an educational, health and economic basketcase![/p][/quote]and with a post like that you are most definately a basket case as you put it and wales is no more labour than what beirut is catholic .wales is down the pan chum because of every one from local council level right upto the wasters in the houses of parliament is robbing us blind no matter who they are tory labour lib dem what ever . clowns like you detached from reality continually bleating about labour to blame for every thing make me laugh to be honest .look at this latest traitor cameron and the way hes selling us out . we would all be better of voting the bnp in to be honest[/p][/quote].jimmysmith wrote: "we would all be better of voting the bnp in to be honest" one of the most sensible comments I have seen or here, someone besides me who see the British National Party as the change our Country needs, most on here want more of the same crap we've had for decades, quite happy to vote for the Millionaires in Parliament and take in the lies the promises, even those who think that they are intellectual intelligent posters on here are FOOLED big style, there are posters on here who don't actually vote yet they think their way is the only way forward for our country, I bet none of them have even looked at the British National Parties Polices, I know some one from UKIP have, Nigel Farage, most of their Polices are the BNP with a Tory spin.... welshmen

10:03am Fri 14 Feb 14

Mervyn James says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too.

I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol
If you paid attention and checked your facts you would know that the 4 sacked AM's actually refused to vote against the Conservative Party policy on tax raising powers and were sacked for this by Andrew RT Davies.

The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent.
"The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent."

They know it makes sense to not listen to their idiot heirachy over the border, this is wales not England It is the tories here looking for guidance from England and following their policies not the interests of welsh people, I don't know why they are here to be honest..
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too. I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol[/p][/quote]If you paid attention and checked your facts you would know that the 4 sacked AM's actually refused to vote against the Conservative Party policy on tax raising powers and were sacked for this by Andrew RT Davies. The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent.[/p][/quote]"The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent." They know it makes sense to not listen to their idiot heirachy over the border, this is wales not England It is the tories here looking for guidance from England and following their policies not the interests of welsh people, I don't know why they are here to be honest.. Mervyn James

5:13pm Fri 14 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too.

I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol
If you paid attention and checked your facts you would know that the 4 sacked AM's actually refused to vote against the Conservative Party policy on tax raising powers and were sacked for this by Andrew RT Davies.

The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent.
"The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent."

They know it makes sense to not listen to their idiot heirachy over the border, this is wales not England It is the tories here looking for guidance from England and following their policies not the interests of welsh people, I don't know why they are here to be honest..
What a ridiculous statement, the country, nation or whatever you wish to call it, is the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

Your statement is like saying Yorkshire and the rest of the UK are separate entities.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: You said it. They sat on their backside then moaned afterwards, so whose fault is that ? If most had voted against, it wouldn't exist surely ? My dad voted Labour, My mum voted Tory lol, my vote is my business. I've never followed blindly what my parents voted for, they obviously had differing views and managed to live with it,and they never suggested I vote one way or another,not that I would have listened anyway. Today's youth DON'T VOTE at all. Disenchantment is all very well but the bar is a more preferred option, so the dominant labour voter who does turn up swings the balance, until people realize that apathy is their favorite stance they will just have to put up with it,the power of change is in their own hands, I suggest the majority WANT a labour party, voters that turned up did too. I don't know about 'chip' Tory's are not a government voted into power NOW either,they are their because the lib-dems wanted a taste of it, they soon found out what it means to have ANYTHING to do with a tory party, they railroaded the lib dems to oblivion, just pathetic really. Yesterday the assembly welsh tories sacked 4 of their own because they didn't vote with a London-based tory suggestion, so even their own party has a 'chip' against London interference lol[/p][/quote]If you paid attention and checked your facts you would know that the 4 sacked AM's actually refused to vote against the Conservative Party policy on tax raising powers and were sacked for this by Andrew RT Davies. The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent.[/p][/quote]"The Welsh Conservative hierarchy are nothing more than a sub-branch of Welsh Labour and are as equally incompetent." They know it makes sense to not listen to their idiot heirachy over the border, this is wales not England It is the tories here looking for guidance from England and following their policies not the interests of welsh people, I don't know why they are here to be honest..[/p][/quote]What a ridiculous statement, the country, nation or whatever you wish to call it, is the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. Your statement is like saying Yorkshire and the rest of the UK are separate entities. Crossbenchtory

10:49am Sun 16 Feb 14

Mervyn James says...

Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ? Mervyn James

11:16am Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in. Crossbenchtory

11:16am Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in. Crossbenchtory

3:24pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Agree entirely.
However, you are 'banging your head against a wall' if you think that the mentality of the majority will change.
Wales will always be a loser country unfortunately. Blaming the rich and middle classes for the situation in which it finds itself.
Insane it may be, but get used to it, because it isn't going to change anytime soon.
It must be quite depressing to have a lack of ambition and no hope for the future. I know my hunger for success will never decrease, even as I near retirement age.
I will also make sure that my children have the same drive and enthusiasm to get on in life.
As my good friend said, to a certain extent you make your own luck and it is better to be envied than pitied.
You can achieve a lot if you put something in, but you will achieve nothing if you sit on your backside and expect a win on the lottery to get you out of your situation.
There are plenty of examples of people that have done well, coming from working class backgrounds, the difference is that they have put some effort into it and have worked hard and taken risks.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Agree entirely. However, you are 'banging your head against a wall' if you think that the mentality of the majority will change. Wales will always be a loser country unfortunately. Blaming the rich and middle classes for the situation in which it finds itself. Insane it may be, but get used to it, because it isn't going to change anytime soon. It must be quite depressing to have a lack of ambition and no hope for the future. I know my hunger for success will never decrease, even as I near retirement age. I will also make sure that my children have the same drive and enthusiasm to get on in life. As my good friend said, to a certain extent you make your own luck and it is better to be envied than pitied. You can achieve a lot if you put something in, but you will achieve nothing if you sit on your backside and expect a win on the lottery to get you out of your situation. There are plenty of examples of people that have done well, coming from working class backgrounds, the difference is that they have put some effort into it and have worked hard and taken risks. Cymru Am Beth

6:44pm Sun 16 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves? GardenVarietyMushroom

7:06pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate? Crossbenchtory

7:46pm Sun 16 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough. GardenVarietyMushroom

7:57pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Mervyn James says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose.

IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales.

I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose. IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales. I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too... Mervyn James

7:58pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in.

Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit.

Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state.
In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.[/p][/quote]I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in. Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit. Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state. In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history. Crossbenchtory

8:06pm Sun 16 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo



m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in.

Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit.

Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state.
In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.
If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing?

You're full of it mate!

None so blind as them who won't see, eh?
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.[/p][/quote]I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in. Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit. Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state. In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.[/p][/quote]If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing? You're full of it mate! None so blind as them who won't see, eh? GardenVarietyMushroom

8:07pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Mervyn James wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose.

IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales.

I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...
Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs....

What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them.

Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election.
Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose. IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales. I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...[/p][/quote]Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs.... What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them. Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election. Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out. Crossbenchtory

8:12pm Sun 16 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose.

IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales.

I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...
Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs....

What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them.

Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election.
Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.
He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose. IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales. I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...[/p][/quote]Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs.... What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them. Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election. Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.[/p][/quote]He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories. GardenVarietyMushroom

8:13pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo




m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in.

Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit.

Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state.
In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.
If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing?

You're full of it mate!

None so blind as them who won't see, eh?
Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law.

Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.[/p][/quote]I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in. Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit. Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state. In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.[/p][/quote]If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing? You're full of it mate! None so blind as them who won't see, eh?[/p][/quote]Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law. Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state. Crossbenchtory

8:16pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo



m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose.

IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales.

I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...
Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs....

What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them.

Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election.
Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.
He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories.
That's about the same proportion of the Welsh population that voted for devolution. Well, albeit for different reasons at least we can agree the assembly should go then.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose. IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales. I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...[/p][/quote]Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs.... What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them. Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election. Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.[/p][/quote]He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories.[/p][/quote]That's about the same proportion of the Welsh population that voted for devolution. Well, albeit for different reasons at least we can agree the assembly should go then. Crossbenchtory

8:24pm Sun 16 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo



m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo





m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in.

Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit.

Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state.
In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.
If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing?

You're full of it mate!

None so blind as them who won't see, eh?
Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law.

Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.
So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss?

Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be.

In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business.

Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.[/p][/quote]I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in. Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit. Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state. In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.[/p][/quote]If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing? You're full of it mate! None so blind as them who won't see, eh?[/p][/quote]Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law. Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.[/p][/quote]So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss? Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be. In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business. Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers. GardenVarietyMushroom

8:25pm Sun 16 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo




m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose.

IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales.

I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...
Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs....

What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them.

Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election.
Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.
He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories.
That's about the same proportion of the Welsh population that voted for devolution. Well, albeit for different reasons at least we can agree the assembly should go then.
I'll agree the WAG have no valid mandate if you admit that the Tory government hasn't either.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose. IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales. I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...[/p][/quote]Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs.... What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them. Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election. Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.[/p][/quote]He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories.[/p][/quote]That's about the same proportion of the Welsh population that voted for devolution. Well, albeit for different reasons at least we can agree the assembly should go then.[/p][/quote]I'll agree the WAG have no valid mandate if you admit that the Tory government hasn't either. GardenVarietyMushroom

8:26pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo




m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo






m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in.

Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit.

Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state.
In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.
If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing?

You're full of it mate!

None so blind as them who won't see, eh?
Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law.

Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.
So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss?

Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be.

In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business.

Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers.
And who takes the risk of putting up the initial capital?
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.[/p][/quote]I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in. Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit. Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state. In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.[/p][/quote]If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing? You're full of it mate! None so blind as them who won't see, eh?[/p][/quote]Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law. Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.[/p][/quote]So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss? Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be. In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business. Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers.[/p][/quote]And who takes the risk of putting up the initial capital? Crossbenchtory

8:31pm Sun 16 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo



m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo





m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo







m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in.

Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit.

Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state.
In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.
If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing?

You're full of it mate!

None so blind as them who won't see, eh?
Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law.

Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.
So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss?

Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be.

In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business.

Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers.
And who takes the risk of putting up the initial capital?
And how does the owner get that capital if not by exploiting other people?
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.[/p][/quote]I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in. Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit. Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state. In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.[/p][/quote]If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing? You're full of it mate! None so blind as them who won't see, eh?[/p][/quote]Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law. Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.[/p][/quote]So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss? Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be. In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business. Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers.[/p][/quote]And who takes the risk of putting up the initial capital?[/p][/quote]And how does the owner get that capital if not by exploiting other people? GardenVarietyMushroom

8:33pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo





m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose.

IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales.

I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...
Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs....

What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them.

Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election.
Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.
He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories.
That's about the same proportion of the Welsh population that voted for devolution. Well, albeit for different reasons at least we can agree the assembly should go then.
I'll agree the WAG have no valid mandate if you admit that the Tory government hasn't either.
You completely miss my point, which is that our democracy works in that way.

I am vehemently opposed to everything the socialists stand for and I will fight them every step of the way by democratic means, but the people of Wales, for some reason that is utterly beyond me, keep electing them.

By the same token I will always believe that devolution is bad for Wales, but it is here so I will always campaign to prevent it going any further but it is up to those who can be bothered voting.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose. IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales. I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...[/p][/quote]Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs.... What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them. Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election. Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.[/p][/quote]He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories.[/p][/quote]That's about the same proportion of the Welsh population that voted for devolution. Well, albeit for different reasons at least we can agree the assembly should go then.[/p][/quote]I'll agree the WAG have no valid mandate if you admit that the Tory government hasn't either.[/p][/quote]You completely miss my point, which is that our democracy works in that way. I am vehemently opposed to everything the socialists stand for and I will fight them every step of the way by democratic means, but the people of Wales, for some reason that is utterly beyond me, keep electing them. By the same token I will always believe that devolution is bad for Wales, but it is here so I will always campaign to prevent it going any further but it is up to those who can be bothered voting. Crossbenchtory

8:38pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo




m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo






m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo








m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in.

Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit.

Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state.
In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.
If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing?

You're full of it mate!

None so blind as them who won't see, eh?
Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law.

Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.
So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss?

Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be.

In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business.

Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers.
And who takes the risk of putting up the initial capital?
And how does the owner get that capital if not by exploiting other people?
The worker/owner relationship is symbiotic, the worker relies on the owner for work and the owner relies on the worker for labour.

Where the problems arise is when socialists try and artificially set wage rates as was done with the minimum wage which has done more to suppress wages in the UK than any other single thing.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.[/p][/quote]I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in. Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit. Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state. In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.[/p][/quote]If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing? You're full of it mate! None so blind as them who won't see, eh?[/p][/quote]Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law. Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.[/p][/quote]So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss? Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be. In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business. Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers.[/p][/quote]And who takes the risk of putting up the initial capital?[/p][/quote]And how does the owner get that capital if not by exploiting other people?[/p][/quote]The worker/owner relationship is symbiotic, the worker relies on the owner for work and the owner relies on the worker for labour. Where the problems arise is when socialists try and artificially set wage rates as was done with the minimum wage which has done more to suppress wages in the UK than any other single thing. Crossbenchtory

8:39pm Sun 16 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo



m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo






m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose.

IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales.

I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...
Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs....

What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them.

Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election.
Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.
He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories.
That's about the same proportion of the Welsh population that voted for devolution. Well, albeit for different reasons at least we can agree the assembly should go then.
I'll agree the WAG have no valid mandate if you admit that the Tory government hasn't either.
You completely miss my point, which is that our democracy works in that way.

I am vehemently opposed to everything the socialists stand for and I will fight them every step of the way by democratic means, but the people of Wales, for some reason that is utterly beyond me, keep electing them.

By the same token I will always believe that devolution is bad for Wales, but it is here so I will always campaign to prevent it going any further but it is up to those who can be bothered voting.
We don't have a democracy.

Neither is the WAG socialist in nature - they're capitalist based on the description I gave you earlier. As is westminster, and most of the other governments in the world.
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Us versus them, it won't change in Wales. No one trusts a tory any more, their continual attacks on the poor and the vulnerable under the guise of weeding out benefit frauds was rumbled, just no-one believes they are sincere. We have 30,000 in wales queuing up for food hand outs, Bedroom taxes seen for what they are a total waste of time, since disabled forced to downsize force LS's to pay for changes where they move, and also force LA's and housing authorities to alter larger premises to suit non disabled, no thought at all has gone into it, because the policy was to attack the poor whatever the cost. Since only 1% were fraudulent and 16% have had benefits curtailed logic must declare their real purpose. IDS said the welfare changes will help the worst off, so they created more of them. Now Cameron (An un-elected tory leader with an equally un-elected sidekick of Clegg), is trying to be a Thatcher clone, surveys suggest both will be unemployed next vote, can't wait. More socialism please. Emulating Thatcher on any level by any party is electoral suicide especially in Wales. I cannot understand why Labour would try that ploy, except in England and to grab some English Votes. Milliband better watch his back too...[/p][/quote]Maybe if the 30,000 you alleged stopped spending their money on booze, fags and drugs.... What bedroom tax is this, since the children left home I have a number of spare bedrooms, but I don't pay tax on them. Precisely how is David Cameron unelected? I distinctly recall voting in a general election in 2010 and I'm sure the people of his Oxfordshire constituency returned a man named David Cameron to parliament in the self same election. Just in case you do not understand how our democracy works, the Prime Minister is the MP or Lord who has the confidence of the majority of Parliament. By convention this person is the Leader of the largest party in the House of Commons. I do hope this helps you out.[/p][/quote]He's unelected because he only amassed less than 20% of the total vote - which means that 80% didn't vote for him, or the bloody tories.[/p][/quote]That's about the same proportion of the Welsh population that voted for devolution. Well, albeit for different reasons at least we can agree the assembly should go then.[/p][/quote]I'll agree the WAG have no valid mandate if you admit that the Tory government hasn't either.[/p][/quote]You completely miss my point, which is that our democracy works in that way. I am vehemently opposed to everything the socialists stand for and I will fight them every step of the way by democratic means, but the people of Wales, for some reason that is utterly beyond me, keep electing them. By the same token I will always believe that devolution is bad for Wales, but it is here so I will always campaign to prevent it going any further but it is up to those who can be bothered voting.[/p][/quote]We don't have a democracy. Neither is the WAG socialist in nature - they're capitalist based on the description I gave you earlier. As is westminster, and most of the other governments in the world. GardenVarietyMushroom

8:42pm Sun 16 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo



m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo





m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo







m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo









m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in.

Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit.

Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state.
In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.
If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing?

You're full of it mate!

None so blind as them who won't see, eh?
Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law.

Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.
So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss?

Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be.

In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business.

Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers.
And who takes the risk of putting up the initial capital?
And how does the owner get that capital if not by exploiting other people?
The worker/owner relationship is symbiotic, the worker relies on the owner for work and the owner relies on the worker for labour.

Where the problems arise is when socialists try and artificially set wage rates as was done with the minimum wage which has done more to suppress wages in the UK than any other single thing.
Boll***s!!

Where the problems arise is when the owner takes more of the value of their workers work, than the workers themselves get. In fact, the real problem is inherent in the very nature of 'wages'
[quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.[/p][/quote]I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in. Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit. Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state. In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.[/p][/quote]If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing? You're full of it mate! None so blind as them who won't see, eh?[/p][/quote]Because an individuals labour is worth a certain amount when taking as a percentage of a company's profits. Granted wages are suppressed in the UK due to the effect of the minimum wage which gives employers a target to aim for that is enshrined in law. Oh yes, that's right, the minimum wage was brought in by the socialists wasn't it. Never minds, rather than allowing the market to determine wages the socialists decided to artificially set them so they could top up everyone's wages with tax credits, thus making MORE people dependent on the state.[/p][/quote]So how can it be about 'keeping what you earn' when most of what you earn goes to the company and the boss? Ansdwer - it isn't. No matter how much you want it to be. In a syndicalised workplace however, which is part of the libertarian socialist philosophy, all reward is equally shared. If a company earns £1,000,000 a year and has ten staff, then each staff member gets one tenth - or they may decide, on a consensus basis, to take one ninth share and reinvest the last share back into the business. Your tory model however, would have one boss, or owner, who takes eight profit shares for themselves, reinvests one share back into the business, then divides the final share amongst the other nine workers.[/p][/quote]And who takes the risk of putting up the initial capital?[/p][/quote]And how does the owner get that capital if not by exploiting other people?[/p][/quote]The worker/owner relationship is symbiotic, the worker relies on the owner for work and the owner relies on the worker for labour. Where the problems arise is when socialists try and artificially set wage rates as was done with the minimum wage which has done more to suppress wages in the UK than any other single thing.[/p][/quote]Boll***s!! Where the problems arise is when the owner takes more of the value of their workers work, than the workers themselves get. In fact, the real problem is inherent in the very nature of 'wages' GardenVarietyMushroom

9:31pm Sun 16 Feb 14

Crossbenchtory says...

And the above shows why Wales is a basketcase, economic and political illiteracy and ineptitude are rampant amongst both the politicians and the voters.

Above we have two people who blame central government, capitalism, business owners and generally anyone better off than themselves for all their woes. No spine, no moral fortitude and no wish to take responsibility for their own situation.
This is what is wrong with the UK generally and Wales in particular.
And the above shows why Wales is a basketcase, economic and political illiteracy and ineptitude are rampant amongst both the politicians and the voters. Above we have two people who blame central government, capitalism, business owners and generally anyone better off than themselves for all their woes. No spine, no moral fortitude and no wish to take responsibility for their own situation. This is what is wrong with the UK generally and Wales in particular. Crossbenchtory

7:47am Mon 17 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

And there we see the arrogance of the true blue - anyone that disagrees with me is an idiot, and if I can't argue with their logic, I'll dismiss their arguments with insults.
And there we see the arrogance of the true blue - anyone that disagrees with me is an idiot, and if I can't argue with their logic, I'll dismiss their arguments with insults. GardenVarietyMushroom

10:12am Mon 17 Feb 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo




m
wrote:
Crossbenchtory wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ?

The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?
Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you.

Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires.

It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc.
It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.
Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides.

Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques.

Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?
Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy.

Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world.
That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury.

Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?
My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening.

I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded.

Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.
I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in.

Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit.

Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state.
In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.
If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing?

You're full of it mate!

None so blind as them who won't see, eh?
Typical left wing Communist view.
So the bosses are to take all the risks and give it all away to their workers Under your system, there wouldn't be any more bosses , so no wealth would be created to keep the feckless and work shy in the manner to which they are accustomed.
Wages account for a large proportion of turnover and in my business, after paying VAT and all the other associated taxes, there is very little left to secure a profit.
I certainly don't earn anything like you suggest, in fact I have recently started a new business and I don't get paid anything at the moment.
Also, I don't sit on my backside either and am taking all the risks.
If you were running the country I would leave on the next available plane.
No wonder Wales is in such a state if you are representative of the majority.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Crossbenchtory[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Yorkshire is in England last time I looked, and is not Scotland involved lol. I think toryism is a particular middle-upper-class trait. When we find a party that appeals to all equally, then maybe we can move on, we seem to have been stuck in the rich versus poor scenario for 100s of years, who says class war doesn't exist ? The rich get richer the poor get poorer. As before we have predominant labour representation in Wales and an Assembly, simply because we voted that way, what part of democracy don't you understand ?[/p][/quote]Maybe Toryism is an upper middle class trait because it is about taking responsibility for ones self and not blaming others when things go wrong and expecting others to wipe your snotty nose for you. Socialism, on the other hand, is about blaming others when things go wrong and the belief that the world owes you a living and some one else should take responsibility for all your needs and desires. It is interesting that Wales, which has been run by the socialists from Westminster and then Cardiff Bay, is the worst performing region in the UK in education, healthcare, economics etc etc etc. It was once said that insanity is doing the something over and over and expecting a different result. To believe that the answer to the utter failure of socialism is more socialism is the height of insanity and the sooner the Welsh voting public realise this the sooner we can escape the mire we are currently in.[/p][/quote]Didn't hear those bankers crying about socialism when their industry, which was deregulated under Thatcher, collapsed and needed £1.5 trillion of our money to save their greedy backsides. Likewise, I don't hear all those Tory voting Monmouthsire farmers moaning about the evils of socialism when they cash their taxpayer funded subsidy cheques. Could it be that the rich are only too happy to embrace socialism when it is used for their benefit and that it's just 'evil' when we want some of that action for ourselves?[/p][/quote]Both of the instances you cite are, as you rightly describe them, socialist in nature and encourage poor business practices which are detrimental to the UK economy. Farming subsidies should be abolished and the banks should not have been bailed out. The fact that both of these things happen merely supports my previous statement that the politics of the UK, and Europe in general, are far to the left of the majority of the rest of the world. That they also damage the UK economy serves to reinforce my position that socialism is a short cut to national penury. Could you explain precisely what it is that you are trying to illustrate?[/p][/quote]My point is that 'Toryism' as you call it - by which I believe you mean capitalism, as that is what toryism epitomises, and you cite it as opposite to socialism - is actually a rather perverse form of socialism that reserves the benefits for the upper classes, whilst ensuring the lower classes take on the responsibility, that the cost and the risk are borne by us whilst the profit goes to them. This is what it is to be a capititalist. True socialism, whether you're a proponant of state socialism, or libertarian solcialism, is about sharing the risks and rewards equally and this is not what is happening. I can give you any number fo examples to further illustrate this, from the way the IMF operates right down to David Cameron saying 'money is no object' as soon as the Tory heartlands get flooded. Your game is up mate. Us, the people are getting wise to your horse manure and we've 'ad enough.[/p][/quote]I see you have a somewhat misguided and delusional view of what both capitalism is and what real Conservative's believe in. Let me enlighten you as it is quite simple really. It is about equality of opportunity. It is about the right to keep what you earn and use it as you see fit. Socialism, by contrast, is about equality of outcome. This is achieved by, inter alia, obscene tax regimes which strip people of the vast majority of what they earn in order to redistribute the money to those who can not be bothered making their own way in the world, encouraging poor business practices (as we have seen with banking and farming to cite just two examples). It acts as a brake on enterprise and endeavours to make the whole of society dependent on the state. In short it is a scourge on our society that needs to be disposed of in the rubbish bin of history.[/p][/quote]If it's about 'keeping what you earn' then why are 99.9% of the workers in this country denied the full benefit of the value of their work, to give it to their bosses who do nothing? You're full of it mate! None so blind as them who won't see, eh?[/p][/quote]Typical left wing Communist view. So the bosses are to take all the risks and give it all away to their workers Under your system, there wouldn't be any more bosses , so no wealth would be created to keep the feckless and work shy in the manner to which they are accustomed. Wages account for a large proportion of turnover and in my business, after paying VAT and all the other associated taxes, there is very little left to secure a profit. I certainly don't earn anything like you suggest, in fact I have recently started a new business and I don't get paid anything at the moment. Also, I don't sit on my backside either and am taking all the risks. If you were running the country I would leave on the next available plane. No wonder Wales is in such a state if you are representative of the majority. Cymru Am Beth

10:34am Mon 17 Feb 14

Mervyn James says...

The minimum age was set to prevent employers continually exploiting their workforce with derisory rewards for their labour. What wasn't foreseen, was after that. employers used the minimum wage as a maximum and norm, the law did not clarify employers could not restrict the workforce TO the minimum wage, it was established as a 'starting' wage. Yet no-one challenged it.

Over time the economy changed but employers then used the Min wage to keep wages down, and we saw i introduced the most despicable employment system ever , the 'zero hours' rip off, where people were held in limbo. Added to that was the draconian assault on benefits that were withdrawn as a result because zero hours standby is assumed as 'employed' but workers got scant work and often no pay either.

UK employed do more overtime for nothing than any other country in Europe. Tories are about exploitation, about privilege, and fraud, they legalize it for their banker friends and unscrupulous employers who donate to them. They welcome Banks who fail, by rewarding that failure and sacking more people.

Those who carp on about what constitutes democracy, the answer is the ballot box, if 50% of people sit on their backside and don't vote, and 26% of those vote labour and the other parties garner what's left, then the answer is with the voters who did nothing, as it stands democracy has spoken, we have a welsh assembly, and, an unelected UK government in Westminster made up of two parties who lost the vote majority, the con-dems, con being the operative term...

You want change, you know what to do, but criticizing those who voted gets no-one anywhere, as we write half here WON'T bother to vote next time either, is there a point to all this whining about the Assembly ? or the Labour party ?
The minimum age was set to prevent employers continually exploiting their workforce with derisory rewards for their labour. What wasn't foreseen, was after that. employers used the minimum wage as a maximum and norm, the law did not clarify employers could not restrict the workforce TO the minimum wage, it was established as a 'starting' wage. Yet no-one challenged it. Over time the economy changed but employers then used the Min wage to keep wages down, and we saw i introduced the most despicable employment system ever , the 'zero hours' rip off, where people were held in limbo. Added to that was the draconian assault on benefits that were withdrawn as a result because zero hours standby is assumed as 'employed' but workers got scant work and often no pay either. UK employed do more overtime for nothing than any other country in Europe. Tories are about exploitation, about privilege, and fraud, they legalize it for their banker friends and unscrupulous employers who donate to them. They welcome Banks who fail, by rewarding that failure and sacking more people. Those who carp on about what constitutes democracy, the answer is the ballot box, if 50% of people sit on their backside and don't vote, and 26% of those vote labour and the other parties garner what's left, then the answer is with the voters who did nothing, as it stands democracy has spoken, we have a welsh assembly, and, an unelected UK government in Westminster made up of two parties who lost the vote majority, the con-dems, con being the operative term... You want change, you know what to do, but criticizing those who voted gets no-one anywhere, as we write half here WON'T bother to vote next time either, is there a point to all this whining about the Assembly ? or the Labour party ? Mervyn James

10:43am Mon 17 Feb 14

welshmen says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
What? And live under the tories? I'd sooner die.
same for as Labour milkshake?....
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: What? And live under the tories? I'd sooner die.[/p][/quote]same for as Labour milkshake?.... welshmen

10:54am Mon 17 Feb 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Mervyn James wrote:
The minimum age was set to prevent employers continually exploiting their workforce with derisory rewards for their labour. What wasn't foreseen, was after that. employers used the minimum wage as a maximum and norm, the law did not clarify employers could not restrict the workforce TO the minimum wage, it was established as a 'starting' wage. Yet no-one challenged it.

Over time the economy changed but employers then used the Min wage to keep wages down, and we saw i introduced the most despicable employment system ever , the 'zero hours' rip off, where people were held in limbo. Added to that was the draconian assault on benefits that were withdrawn as a result because zero hours standby is assumed as 'employed' but workers got scant work and often no pay either.

UK employed do more overtime for nothing than any other country in Europe. Tories are about exploitation, about privilege, and fraud, they legalize it for their banker friends and unscrupulous employers who donate to them. They welcome Banks who fail, by rewarding that failure and sacking more people.

Those who carp on about what constitutes democracy, the answer is the ballot box, if 50% of people sit on their backside and don't vote, and 26% of those vote labour and the other parties garner what's left, then the answer is with the voters who did nothing, as it stands democracy has spoken, we have a welsh assembly, and, an unelected UK government in Westminster made up of two parties who lost the vote majority, the con-dems, con being the operative term...

You want change, you know what to do, but criticizing those who voted gets no-one anywhere, as we write half here WON'T bother to vote next time either, is there a point to all this whining about the Assembly ? or the Labour party ?
And members of the Labour Party are not guilty of exploitation?
Some of the worst offenders in the MP's expenses debacle were Labour members.
I seem to remember that Gordon Brown was mostly responsible for the banking debacle.
It is not just Tories that have their 'snouts in the trough'.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: The minimum age was set to prevent employers continually exploiting their workforce with derisory rewards for their labour. What wasn't foreseen, was after that. employers used the minimum wage as a maximum and norm, the law did not clarify employers could not restrict the workforce TO the minimum wage, it was established as a 'starting' wage. Yet no-one challenged it. Over time the economy changed but employers then used the Min wage to keep wages down, and we saw i introduced the most despicable employment system ever , the 'zero hours' rip off, where people were held in limbo. Added to that was the draconian assault on benefits that were withdrawn as a result because zero hours standby is assumed as 'employed' but workers got scant work and often no pay either. UK employed do more overtime for nothing than any other country in Europe. Tories are about exploitation, about privilege, and fraud, they legalize it for their banker friends and unscrupulous employers who donate to them. They welcome Banks who fail, by rewarding that failure and sacking more people. Those who carp on about what constitutes democracy, the answer is the ballot box, if 50% of people sit on their backside and don't vote, and 26% of those vote labour and the other parties garner what's left, then the answer is with the voters who did nothing, as it stands democracy has spoken, we have a welsh assembly, and, an unelected UK government in Westminster made up of two parties who lost the vote majority, the con-dems, con being the operative term... You want change, you know what to do, but criticizing those who voted gets no-one anywhere, as we write half here WON'T bother to vote next time either, is there a point to all this whining about the Assembly ? or the Labour party ?[/p][/quote]And members of the Labour Party are not guilty of exploitation? Some of the worst offenders in the MP's expenses debacle were Labour members. I seem to remember that Gordon Brown was mostly responsible for the banking debacle. It is not just Tories that have their 'snouts in the trough'. Cymru Am Beth

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