Scientist 'raised subject of Campbell' BBC man questioned over Kelly contacts, WMD and spin chief

The defence correspondent for BBC Radio 4's Today programme was questioned over his meetings with Dr David Kelly, the government weapons inspector who is thought to have committed suicide after being named as the source for Mr Gilligan's report.

James Dingemans, QC, counsel to the inquiry, began by quizzing Mr Gilligan on his professional career and then his contacts with Dr Kelly.

He asked: ''Can you tell us when you first met Dr Kelly?'' Mr Gilligan: ''It was in the early months of 2001. I can't tell you exactly when but it was probably in January or February.''

He said he wanted to speak to Dr Kelly to discuss issues on Iraq. He had been initially recommended to him by a colleague at the BBC. Dr Kelly had been on the corporation's contacts database since 1998 and was described as an MoD expert.

Their first meeting was at the Charing Cross Hotel in central London and did not form the basis for a news story, although it provided background and further contact.

Dr Kelly told him that in the government's April dossier, setting out background on Iraq, the scientist had advised on the paper. The document, which at that stage was unpublished, was described by Dr Kelly as uneventful in that form.

During the meeting, Dr Kelly also set out his views of the Iraqi regime. ''He did not trust them at all,'' Mr Gilligan said. ''He was extremely conscious of the deception and the manipulation which they practised on a whole series of weapons inspectors and the lies they had told.''

Mr Gilligan was asked to read his notes, stored on a personal organiser, from his meeting with Dr Kelly on May 22 this year. The notes, which were in annotated form, said: ''Transformed a week before publication to make it sexier, a classic was the 45 minutes, most things in the dossier were double-sourced but that was single-sourced.''

The note then referred to Alastair Campbell, saying: ''Campbell, real information but unreliable included against our wishes he asked if anything else could go in.''

Mr Gilligan was pressed on his meetings with Dr Kelly. In an e-mail on July 18 this year, Mr Gilligan said he had four face-to-face meetings with the scientist, but he told the hearing it was only three.

''I've checked my diaries and I've checked my notebook and I've checked my recollections and I think it was three.''

Returning to the meeting on May 22, Mr Gilligan explained he had contacted the scientist after his return from Iraq.

''I started out without taking notes actually, but I asked to start taking notes when he got on to interesting topics.''

Lord Hutton then asked Mr Gilligan: ''You put the question 'Was it to make it sexier?' and Dr Kelly replied 'Yes, to make it sexier'.''

Mr Gilligan replied: ''Yes.''

Lord Hutton said: ''Are you clear in your recollection that you asked how was it transformed and that the name Campbell was first spoken by Dr Kelly.'' Mr Gilligan replied: ''Yes, absolutely.''

Lord Hutton: ''It wasn't a question by you saying 'Is Campbell involved in this?'''

Mr Gilligan: ''No, it was him. He raised the subject of 45 minutes and he raised the subject of Campbell.''

After his third and final meeting with Dr Kelly, he typed up notes he had made on a palm-top computer. He said he then attempted to verify the claim that Mr Campbell had intervened to make the dossier ''sexier''.

''I went to see a couple of people, I will call them senior contacts in government,'' he said. ''I did not tell them that Dr Kelly had said it but I said I had been told this - was there any truth in it? Neither of them could confirm or deny it.''

Asked by Lord Hutton if he believed Dr Kelly had intended to challenge the government, Mr Gilligan replied: ''I don't think he set out to take on the government in that sense, I just think he was expressing his professional opinion on the dossier.''

Mr Gilligan told the inquiry that during a meeting with Dr Kelly they had talked about the dossier and that the journalist had reminded Dr Kelly that at their last meeting he had said it was not very exciting.

Mr Gilligan said Dr Kelly told him that was right ''until the last week'' when changes had been made. Mr Gilligan said he put to Dr Kelly: ''I said, to make it sexier?''

He said Dr Kelly replied: ''Yes, to make it sexier.'' Mr Gilligan said he asked Dr Kelly how that transformation had occurred. Dr Kelly had said the name Campbell.

The journalist said he had asked Dr Kelly if Mr Campbell had made it up. ''He said no, it was real information but it was unreliable and that it was in the dossier against our wishes.''

Mr Gilligan told the inquiry: ''Dr Kelly was in no doubt that there was, and he said this and it was one of the things he asked me to say, that there was a WMD programme of some sort, but he did not believe the level of threat to the west was as great as the dossier had said.''

Mr Gilligan told the inquiry that he was not ''making a charge'' against the government in his reference to the 45-minute claim.

He said: ''I was simply reporting what I believe Dr Kelly meant when he said what he said. I wasn't making the judgment that the government had got it wrong in bad faith.''

Mr Dingemans pointed out that the story was picked up and reported worldwide, including the allegation of bad faith. Mr Gilligan said: ''That was not an allegation I would necessarily support.''

He said it was not his intention to give anyone the impression that the government had lied or had made anything up.

Mr Dingemans then read part of a letter sent by Dr Kelly to his line manager admitting to meeting Mr Gilligan. The letter confirmed that they had met on May 22 for 45 minutes.

Mr Gilligan contradicted Dr Kelly's claims in the letter. The scientist had written: ''He brought up 45 minutes, it was not me who brought it up. He raised the issue of Alastair Campbell and since I was not involved in the process I was unable to comment. This issue was not discussed at any length.''

Mr Gilligan said: ''It was he who brought up Alastair Campbell. I asked him how did this translation come about, and he said 'Campbell'.''

Dr Kelly also wrote in his letter that he had not discussed or criticised government policy and said he was ''personally sympathetic'' to the war in Iraq.

But Mr Gilligan replied: ''He expressed his belief to me that Iraq had had a weapons of mass destruction programme but he did not believe that there were usable weapons in any great number. He did not say the whole dossier was wrong . . . but he raised significant concerns about the dossier.''

Mr Gilligan was then questioned about evidence, not yet published, which Dr Kelly gave to the intelligence and security committee. The reporter said he was aware that Dr Kelly was not a member of the security services but that he worked ''closely with them'' and had access to certain intelligence.

Dr Kelly told the committee that he ''may well have said that the 45-minute mention was there for impact'', and he cited Hans Blix, the former UN chief weapons inspector, who had been quoted as saying that this claim was ''unwise''. But Mr Gilligan insisted that Dr Kelly was unhappy with that claim. ''He clearly said that it was 'included against our wishes' and he was clearly sceptical about the validity of the claim.''

Mr Dingemans put it to Mr Gilligan that Dr Kelly had told the committee that he thought the question about the 45-minute claim had been raised by the reporter.

''Are you sure you are not mistaken?'' Mr Dingemans asked. Mr Gilligan: ''Absolutely. It's one of the things I remember most clearly.''

It was then put to Mr Gilligan that Dr Kelly suggested to the committee that their meeting was for a ''private conversation''. But Mr Gilligan claimed, for the first time, that he had agreed with Dr Kelly certain quotes relating to the ''sexing up'' of the dossier.

''He was clearly aware that I wanted and intended to report some of his remarks,'' Mr Gilligan said. ''I also told him I wanted to use what he told me about Campbell and the 45-minute claim as an example.''

Mr Gilligan said he had wanted to use two other quotes, but Dr Kelly asked him not to. Mr Gilligan said this may have been because they could have identified Dr Kelly as the source or have divulged sensitive information.

Mr Dingemans concluded: ''Did you when you reported what Dr Kelly had said to you exaggerate or embellish what he reported to you?''

Mr Gilligan: ''No.''

Witnesses

Today

Susan Watts

Gavin Hewitt, BBC reporter who spoke to Dr Kelly by telephone.

Richard Sambrook, BBC head of news.

Brian Wells, director of the MoD's counter proliferation and arms control secretariat, who worked in the same office as Dr Kelly.

Tomorrow

Brian Wells

Martin Howard, deputy chief of defence intelligence

with access to key Iraq

intelligence.

John Williams, press secretary to Jack Straw, foreign secretary; former political editor, Daily Mirror. Will be asked about Dr Kelly's contacts with the press.

Friday

Inquiry not sitting